"McMike" (mcmike)
03/17/2016 at 14:58 • Filed to: Car crime, the internet is bigger than the seller thinks it is
3
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"McMike" (mcmike)
03/17/2016 at 14:58 • Filed to: Car crime, the internet is bigger than the seller thinks it is | 3
| 60 |
Man sees Craigslist ad for low mile S2000. Listing said it had a hard top, hard top stand & cover, and coilovers.
Man flies to LA from NY to look at low mile S2000.
Man pays for S2000, arranges for shipping back to NY
Seller agrees to store car until shipper picks it up.
Man receives car in NY missing coilovers, hard top, cover & stand.
Man angry.
Man contacts seller, seller replies with
“we didn’t sign any proof document on paper saying the car includes hardtop and suspension” you get the car “as is.”
Man more angry
.
!!! UNKNOWN CONTENT TYPE !!!
What he bought
What he got
The listing.
Lesson to be learned by the buyer? Never exchange that kind of money without a bill of sale stating the car is “as is” at the time of sale.
Lesson soon to be learned by the seller? Never invite a buyer to your
house
, only to rip him off later.
(from his post on
!!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!!
describing part of his visit to LA)
We even went to his house and picked up a spare set of mats he had for the car. Never did I expect to get scammed by this guy and trusted him; lesson learned, don’t trust anyone!
Uh oh, better get Lehto.
crowmolly
> McMike
03/17/2016 at 15:08 |
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Wow.
What a classy guy.
Jake - Has Bad Luck So You Don't Have To
> McMike
03/17/2016 at 15:11 |
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Is this not theft? When the money exchanged hands the vehicle and all parts on it became property of the buyer. When the seller, who no longer owned the car at this point, took the parts off of it he was stealing them. I know it can’t really be proved the condition the vehicle was in when money exchanged hands (bank timestamp on the withdrawal correlated with timestamps on the photos?) but, still. Shittier than being scammed. This was straight-up theft.
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McMike
> Jake - Has Bad Luck So You Don't Have To
03/17/2016 at 15:13 |
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Since there was no bill of sale, it’s his word vs the seller’s.
I don’t know if a screenshot of the listing is proof enough to get those items back or to be compensated.
Can Craigslist submit proof that the listing existed?
BKosher84
> McMike
03/17/2016 at 15:19 |
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Because deleting you’re old Facebook Business Page and creating a new one is totally how you get rid of bad publicity... Right??
jariten1781
> Jake - Has Bad Luck So You Don't Have To
03/17/2016 at 15:20 |
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Probably would be charged as fraud, not theft due to the fact it was deceptive and intended that the victim would not find out about it until after a period of time. Could go either way or to something else on the spectrum depending on jurisdiction, but generally unless the crime could be known by the victim during or immediately following the act it'll get grouped as fraud.
BigBlock440
> McMike
03/17/2016 at 15:20 |
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It’s right there in the ad. After reading enough of Steve Lehto’s pieces, I’d say that’s enough in Michigan. Don’t know about California.
LongbowMkII
> McMike
03/17/2016 at 15:23 |
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He paid 33k for an s2000? Lolz.
Ike
> McMike
03/17/2016 at 15:23 |
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How is “Uh oh, better get Lehto!” Not a thing here? Or on his businesses cards yet?
Birddog
> McMike
03/17/2016 at 15:24 |
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The Yelp! Comments are out of this world!
http://www.yelp.com/biz/paragon-au…
citizennick
> McMike
03/17/2016 at 15:25 |
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But the guy bought the car when he went and looked at it and the previous owner took those parts off after the fact? Sounds like theft to me. If the new owner took photos of the car when he saw it (and paid for it) I'm sure he could get those parts back as photos are timestamped and all now. But who knows, I'm not a lawyer.
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McMike
> BigBlock440
03/17/2016 at 15:29 |
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It’s right there in the ad.
It’s in the screenshot, but can he prove it was in the ad?
I could make an ad read that came with AWD, three engines, a boat, and a gift certificate for three (3) driving lessons from Ayrton Senna.
Proving it was in the ad before money changed hands was the part I was asking about. Since the ad has been deleted, that .png is all he has.
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McMike
> citizennick
03/17/2016 at 15:30 |
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I’m no lawyer either. I hope it works out for him.
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Jake - Has Bad Luck So You Don't Have To
> McMike
03/17/2016 at 15:35 |
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I’d buy that for a dollar.
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BigBlock440
> McMike
03/17/2016 at 15:35 |
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Good point, I guess he could argue that it was altered.
MonkeePuzzle
> McMike
03/17/2016 at 15:35 |
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I think I’ve seen the movie!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Big_S…
I’m pissed for the guy, as both a honda and general car enthusiast!
And it’s not just a small theft, hardtops are expensive, and swapping suspension out is no 5 minute job. This is deliberate.
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jariten1781
> McMike
03/17/2016 at 15:35 |
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They'd look at the whole thing. The ad itself might not be enough in a vacuum but the ad, plus the pictures taken by the victim during the trip out there, plus the 'we didn't sign any documents emails', plus statements from other folks who'd seen the ad, plus a comparison of values with and without hardtops compared to the listed price, etc. (basically what a smart person in small claims would collect) would normally be sufficient to sway the judge.
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BigBlock440
> Birddog
03/17/2016 at 15:37 |
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Got an “Active Cleanup Alert”. I didn’t think yelp did that.
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MonkeePuzzle
> LongbowMkII
03/17/2016 at 15:37 |
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I’d pay out the nose for my dream car with all the right parts and low mileage. Imagine you were hunting for your dream s2k and all you saw was the $9k thrashed garbage that craigslist has, and you came across a listing for one that had all your desires. Hardtop, low mileage, mods that you like. pretty worth it.
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McMike
> crowmolly
03/17/2016 at 15:42 |
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Worth posting. What is this, from their old FB page? I ‘m assuming Phuc Huong is not the buyer, right?
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McMike
> jariten1781
03/17/2016 at 15:43 |
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Let’s hope so.
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crowmolly
> McMike
03/17/2016 at 15:43 |
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Not really sure who is who, to be honest.
Berang
> McMike
03/17/2016 at 15:44 |
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It seems like theft plain and simple. The idea that he needs a piece of paper specifically stating that the hard top etc. are his is absolute bullshit. You don’t need a bill of sale or proof of purchase for
every part
of your car, that would be insane. Let alone anything you have had stolen? What kind of universe does the seller live in?
RallyWrench
> McMike
03/17/2016 at 15:46 |
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Yikes. Is that seriously what those things go for? Seems like a ton of money for an 8 year old Honda.
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LongbowMkII
> MonkeePuzzle
03/17/2016 at 15:49 |
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Eh, these aren't unicorns. Buy an excellent condition one for 20k and spend the other 13k shopping for parts. That's more fun anyways.
jagr200
> RallyWrench
03/17/2016 at 15:50 |
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No. The dude got ripped off. On his first page of his original thread on the forums people even mentioned it should have been the first red flag.
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MonkeePuzzle
> LongbowMkII
03/17/2016 at 15:50 |
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for some sure. In my younger days absolutely, but with family, kids, work etc, I barely have time for an oil change in my garage these days. I could understand just wanting to spend some well earned money from a busy life on just getting the car you want out the door ready to go.
Dest
> McMike
03/17/2016 at 15:52 |
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SUE THE FUCK OUTTA THIS GUY.
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LongbowMkII
> MonkeePuzzle
03/17/2016 at 15:53 |
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Yeah, but he has the free time to fly across country for a Honda, he has enough time to install some coilovers.
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RallyWrench
> jagr200
03/17/2016 at 15:54 |
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Makes sense, because holy shit that’s a ridiculous amount of money.
Alex Zapata
> McMike
03/17/2016 at 15:56 |
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The naiveté of Americans is absolutely shocking to me.
Maybe it’s because of my third-world mind, but buying a car and the trusting it to the seller’s possesion until whatever just sound incredibly stupid to me and as far as I can tell the buyer deserved what he got for his stupidity.
That said here in Mexico doing what the buyer did and putting the buyer in a position where he has no legal alternative is just an invitation to get something ILlegal done to you as well.
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Birddog
> BigBlock440
03/17/2016 at 15:56 |
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Weird. I can’t get the reviews via mobile.
Funktheduck
> McMike
03/17/2016 at 15:58 |
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I would think he has a case to sue. The ad lists those parts with the car.
Think! aka anotherburner111122223333
> BigBlock440
03/17/2016 at 16:01 |
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They will if they have a good idea that most of the reviews have been coming in from persons who have never patronaged the business.
If a business gets 1 review a week, then a story is published, and suddenly they have 50 negative reviews an hour, Yelp will step in.
Sort of like suspending trading on a free falling stock after a suspiciously bad report comes out...
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MonkeePuzzle
> LongbowMkII
03/17/2016 at 16:11 |
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or he had business in cali and rolled buying a car into it.
anyhoo, I guess my point is that the price of a hobbyist’s car is relative. Not just a comparison of other like cars from dealers in the same region etc.
I hunted for a year plus for my own Honda, had to be a 99/00, had to be unmolested, had to have low miles, and most of all had to be white. In the end only one fit the bill, and it was on the other side of the country and a certified used car from a Honda dealer. I paid a premium in purchase and shipping. And I’ve never looked back.
Steve in Manhattan
> McMike
03/17/2016 at 16:15 |
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Sue the bastard ... in NY. There are enough contacts with this state to haul him into court. When he doesn’t show up, take your judgment and go after him. If he has money ... of course.
yitznewton
> McMike
03/17/2016 at 16:16 |
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dramadramadramadramadramadramadrama
Galileo Humpkins (aka MC Clap Yo Handz)
> McMike
03/17/2016 at 16:33 |
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Sure we’ve all seen the Jalop FP write up but I thought this worth sharing for those who choose not to venture there often:
REO Jackwagon
> McMike
03/17/2016 at 16:34 |
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When bought, it was complete? Sounds like theft. I’d call police.
jimz
> citizennick
03/17/2016 at 16:34 |
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with the warning that my “legal education” is 99% from listening to Steve Lehto’s podcasts, “AS IS” generally means “you’re buying this car with all of its faults, whether or not you or the seller are aware of them.” It does not mean you can take parts off of the car after money has changed hands. It also does not mean you can deliberately “mask” the faults of the vehicle in order to fool the customer into not seeing them. Like the story Steve tells about a client who bought a Suburban with the engine filled with gear oil to mask the presence of a rod knock.
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MonkeePuzzle
> McMike
03/17/2016 at 16:55 |
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right, <5 minutes in MS-paint...
I know Craigslist stores the text of even deleted ads, because I as a seller can relist them, but the text can be edited over and over, and no idea if it keeps a record of changes, and I’ve had to re-upload pics, so I assume it doesn’t store those. My guess, criagslist is designed to be simple, and keeps none of that.
Short-throw Granny Shifter is 2 #blessed 2b stressed
> McMike
03/17/2016 at 17:40 |
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I think I remember Lehto posting a case about how a dealership delivered a car missing some inane part like a jack or spare tire or something, and the buyer refused to accept the car. He sued for the money back, and in the mean time had no obligation to actively try to get the car back to the dealership.
This seems just like that case. Guy should just stop the check, and let the car sit in the street until the situation is rectified. However, I have a feeling he paid in a way that the money is not recoverable without a lawsuit. $33k really should be put in escrow or a bank loan or something, and not paid upfront.
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jimz
> Ike
03/17/2016 at 20:28 |
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because he only practices in Michigan.
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jimz
> Alex Zapata
03/17/2016 at 20:29 |
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The naiveté of Americans is absolutely shocking to me.
yeah, because one guy is representative of over 300 million other people.
Bytemite
> MonkeePuzzle
03/17/2016 at 20:55 |
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So...you’re saying you paid 30k+ for a used Honda S2k...LOL Okay keep on keeping on with the self-justifications. I’m just laughing.
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MonkeePuzzle
> Bytemite
03/17/2016 at 20:59 |
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no, I'm saying I spent about 3k over local used prices for a 4 year old civic in infinitely better condition that met all my criteria.
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Bytemite
> MonkeePuzzle
03/17/2016 at 21:04 |
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Oh okay. That’s fine. But this $33k S2K is not. You could probably import an R34 Skyline, get it registered and tagged, and blow the doors off that S2K for less than 33k. That is a dumb use of money for street cred.
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MonkeePuzzle
> Bytemite
03/17/2016 at 21:08 |
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but... who said he wanted street cred.
think about all the cars you can get for the cost of a fully restored 60s or 70s muscle car. value is in the eye of the beholder.
I’m going to go out on a limb here, and say he had criteria beyond “fast and street cred yo”, and a skyline doesnt suit.
a 25 year old awd turbo 6 cyl coupe is a pretty different car to a rwd high revving 4 cyl convertible.
what do you drive?
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Bytemite
> MonkeePuzzle
03/17/2016 at 21:11 |
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Yeah it is definitely two different beasts sure but $33k gets you similar cars for brand spankin’ new, not 8 year old ones.
I drive a Veloster Rally and an NA Miata. Why does it matter though?
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MonkeePuzzle
> Bytemite
03/17/2016 at 21:31 |
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two car! sheesh! man you could have gotten a brand new fully loaded Toyota Camry for that money!
but, is that what you wanted?
SIMILAR new cars, dont compare to your dream car. The guy had already owned and sold an s2000, he knew what he wanted, and in his own words felt the $33k was worth it.
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Bytemite
> MonkeePuzzle
03/17/2016 at 21:39 |
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Okay. A Camry is a pretty big jump away from what I have and want. But I get your point. You should also know that people don’t always spend their money wisely, and in this case that’s what I’m arguing. Even if he absolutely had to have an S2K, 33k is a rip off for that car. Maybe he negotiated down too, we’ll never know cuz we only have the asking price to go off of, which is always too high on CL.
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MonkeePuzzle
> Bytemite
03/17/2016 at 22:17 |
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oh, yeah, absolutely, this s2000 in my opinion is overpriced.
I just dont get how an opponaut could call someone out for doing whatever it takes (wisely or otherwise) to get their toy. We are meant to be car nut supporters.
scoob
> Galileo Humpkins (aka MC Clap Yo Handz)
03/17/2016 at 23:29 |
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Damn I love the S2K’s styling.
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Galileo Humpkins (aka MC Clap Yo Handz)
> scoob
03/18/2016 at 00:07 |
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Still a magnificent machine.
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jariten1781
> Berang
03/18/2016 at 08:03 |
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It’s actually more of a gray area then you’d think in the courts. General rule of thumb is that ‘permanently installed’ equipment conveys and temporarily installed does not. The coilovers would be considered permanently installed by the courts since they are integral to the function of the vehicle and could not be installed/removed easily by a layman with no experience. There’s no path (other than a rogue court/jury) that’d align with the seller for those.
Hard top is much squishier. It’s meant to be temporary so the court would lean towards it not conveying in the absence of other evidence (which it looks like there’s plenty of in this case, but not necessarily every case).
Think about it this way, if a dude takes a picture of his car for an ad with a Garmin stuck to the window and then you test drive the car and the GPS is there...does it convey? Court would say no in the absence of other info (listed in the ad, signed document, etc.) and that’s generally how the public treats it as well.
When you’re buying a house, especially a high end one, your team should go through and document anything that could even potentially be considered temporary. I’ve seen lists at closing that include down to the level of model numbers for lighting fixtures and ceiling fans by room as well as stuff like built in in-wall shelving units and marble mantels. That’s a lesson learned in real estate...scumbags will strip the place without it.
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Berang
> jariten1781
03/18/2016 at 09:50 |
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Given the hardtop is OEM and a structural part of the vehicle, even if it is removeable, I think you’d have a better case than if it were for example, hubcaps.
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jariten1781
> Berang
03/18/2016 at 10:03 |
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Yeah, I wasn’t trying to imply there’d be no case, just that it’s not a slam dunk. It’s a gray area and the opposition would make the argument that it was optional equipment specifically designed to be removable. If I were to pull numbers out of my ass and this were a pure word of mouth sale with just one of the issues I’d put the coilovers at 95%+ judgment to the buyer and hardtop at 75%. Still likely to win, but real possibility you could lose on the hard top. If the seller claimed that he specifically stated the hard top did not convey that 75% drops further.
This case would be a 95%+ for both based on the saved ad, the available statements from other forum members that had reviewed the listing, the photos taken during the purchase transaction, the taunting nature of the later responses, and the fact that the clearly deceptive coilovers were bundled with the less crystal hardtop deception.
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Alex Zapata
> jimz
03/18/2016 at 10:50 |
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Well no, but in general I have encountered that Americans tend to be very trusty with complete strangers, since actually most people are Law-Fearing, Law-Abiding citizens, in terms of International Competitiveness it’s part of the “Rule of Law” characteristic of a Country, in general it’s what makes the US such an atractive country in terms of possible investment.
I personally think it’s cute.
spanfucker retire bitch
> McMike
03/18/2016 at 14:01 |
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He might be able to get a google cache of the actual web page. Depends on if it was added to their crawler or not.
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McMike
> spanfucker retire bitch
03/18/2016 at 14:06 |
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This was the drop-down a second ago. :( Maybe Google has it
NJAnon
> McMike
03/18/2016 at 22:55 |
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Don’t ask Lehto now. Should have talked to Lehto BEFORE circumventing the globe to get the car.
“handshakes” and “deals over a beer” aren’t good enough anymore in the 21st century.
